Earlier this year, while writing a lengthy poem, I was doing research into the Salem Witch Trials and the Middle Ages, especially the wars between Christians and Muslims, and it hit me more clearly than ever before: most of the supposed “evils” of religion are actually the fault of well-intentioned people who thought they knew the whole story about reality when they only knew a partial view. My, how it seems prideful humanity so slowly learns lessons of the past.
Yesterday, I spent hours on the phone with Marc Gafni. I’ll get to that.
Honestly, until a few days ago I never paid a lot of attention to the controversies around Gafni (or other attacks on the character of several popular spiritual teachers) for reasons that I won’t go into here except to say one thing. In my view, conventional society has epic sexual shadow and virtually no ability to distinguish pre-conventional sexual promiscuity from postmodern polyamory and post-postmodern styles of sexual relationships. (As a sexual minority — I’m the author of Integral Books/Shambhala’s Soulfully Gay – I’m very sensitive to society’s sexual shadows.)
All that began to change when the recent charges against Marc exploded on the blogosphere. I really, really didn’t want to have to wade into these murky waters. But the integral community I cared about deeply was in pain, grief, and anger. So far as I know, it might even be the most serious controversy faced by several prominent organizations such as Integral Institute, Integral Life, Center for World Spirituality, and Sounds True (a publisher friendly to Integral authors). So I read the blogs and began to form opinions.
I have less skin in the game than many of the other writers, and had never written anything before publicly on Marc Gafni. I am completely open to discovering truth, wisdom, and shadow on all sides (including my own shadows). I am willing to call bull-shit when I see it, and sniff out people engaging in bad-faith discourse, and the postmodernist vices of “victim mentality” and absolutizing values such as Truth and Transparency while failing to acknowledge the ways in which real world complexities sometimes require tradeoffs with other values.
I’ve already said where I stand on some of the relevant issues. As of September 20, five days ago, here’s what I concluded:
All in all, I’d characterize [Robb Smith's] approach as clarity within complexity, a forward-leaning orientation that isn’t afraid to acknowledge that there is messiness and ambiguity not easily tackled in a blog post…. [W]hen I read the responses of Diane Hamilton, Tami Simon, Marcy, and even Marc Gafni himself, I am proud of the caliber of intelligence and compassion and level-headedness displayed by all. Nowhere do I get the feeling that Integral Leadership is defending a fiefdom or angling to defend a lucrative niche or sweeping shadows under the carpet.
The major players in the drama exude sincerity and a strong desire to do what’s right, not fear or anger. Nowhere do I get the sense that anyone is acting merely to defend his/her own behavior instead of acting with genuine concern for bringing into the world a greater truth and goodness that is wanting to emerge.
Gafni’s own passionate defense of post-conventional relationships, polyamory, and post-postmodern analysis of power dynamics is a compelling read … even if one wishes that the author wasn’t such a highly interested party to the astute analysis. One isn’t quite sure whether Marc is a fire starter, or a man who mostly shows up at the scene of a burning bush.
I don’t know if Marc read my last sentence — “One isn’t quite sure…” — when he decided yesterday afternoon to give me a phone call. He said he’d just come across my comment in response to John Dupuy’s blog post on Integral Life and he wanted to talk. I don’t know him, and he doesn’t know me. I’m not one of his students, and don’t care to be. But as someone who hasn’t made up my mind about the whole controversy, he seemed to feel that I would give him a fair hearing.
This is a controversy without a context
So yesterday I spent hours listening to Marc, asking clarifying and critical questions, and getting a feel for the issues involved in the controversy. I also began to get a sense of the enormous — devastating, actually — personal and professional toll the blogosphere attacks have had on him, his loved ones, and the organization he leads. And then I started the process of reading E-mails and documents that he forwarded to me. They painted a picture that appears to show that the prevailing narrative of Bill Harryman and the anti-Marc Gafni faction contains maliciously seeded distortions and lacks a great deal of context … lacking so much context, in fact, that in his view it is a malicious lie.
I think I have pretty good bull-shit detectors. I don’t think I have anything to gain from coming out as a “Marc Gafni supporter.” In fact, as an Integral author, I could face negative consequences and recriminations if I were to take the losing side of a turf war or pissing contest. A potential publisher of my future books could choose not to work with me; I might lose opportunities to teach at Integral Spiritual Experience or similar events in the future. These fears have crossed my mind, though I really don’t think any of these outcomes are likely.
So what I have to say at this time is: a full story behind the Marc Gafni controversy has not come out. There are layers and subtexts of complexity involved in the interactions between all the players in the drama, and some of them involve actions which were apparently made from shadow-directed places. The intentions behind public statements are not always easy to discern, but I can say that the recent events involve personality tensions and differences of opinion about the direction of the Integral movement that have been going on for five years.
The recent controversy manufactured by Harryman does not arise in a vacuum. Remember, the matter involved nothing more sinister than a man separated from his wife (who knew that he had no intention to be monogamous) who dated two adult women who each gave full consent to both the relationship and keeping it out of the public eye (until one of them turned against him for reasons that are not public knowledge.)
People who get in a tizzy because the women were arguably students of his wouldn’t bat an eye if he entered into a legal business transaction with a student using a Non-Disclosure Agreement, but this controversy involves sex, teachers, and students. We are all sexual beings, students of life and the Universe, and all teachers. Talk about the very definition of shadow.
Where’s Ken Wilber in all this?
Ken Wilber has not made a public statement, but then again why should he?
There is so much muck, crud, venom, and seeds of hatred in the shit-stew (one Integral Life blogger compared Marc Gafni to Hannibal Lecter just yesterday), Ken may be thinking: “What good can come from stirring the pot?”
I haven’t talked to him about this. Have you? He’s sort of a busy guy who is dealing with serious health issues.
He is following the controversy and has already made his views known privately to some people, I have good reason to believe, and I don’t know but I guess that he will make a public statement if he believes it is needed.
I don’t know exactly what he would say today, and if I did I wouldn’t want to appoint myself as his spokesman. But it’s worth remembering that about five years ago he did wade into the controversy about the anti-Gafni allegations and he said:
The evidence makes it abundantly clear that the horrendous claims made about Marc on what can only be described as Internet vendetta or hate sites hidden beneath the fig leaf of victim advocacy, are without a shred of truth.
(He also made an analogy between anti-Gafni accusers and neo-Nazis that was probably calculated, Wyatt Earpy-style, to drive the postmodern/conventional contingent of the Integral movement absolutely bonkers. The flexible and multi-perspectival ego does not get so easily offended by colorful analogies, but folks with prickly and defensive egos get excited enough to start witch hunts, inquisitions, vendettas, and even violence.)
I haven’t studied all the details about the allegations about Marc from Israel five years ago, and not sure how deeply I want to wade into that controversy. But what I can say is that my bull-shit detectors are on high alert and much of what Marc says (but not all) strikes me as at least plausible. Everything about Marc speaks to me of a man who is worthy of giving enough of the benefit of the doubt to listen with compassion and love tempered with a willingness to challenge him to own his role in the mess, repent of what needs repented, and move on.
I cannot say the same thing about Bill Harryman and some other anti-Gafni accusers who have been poisoning the blogosphere. Their blog posts and comments have a stink about them that is unmistakable. Self-righteous posturing. Refusal to address honest criticism in favor of ad hominem (For instance, Bill Harryman called me a “tier bigot” for challenging his green/postmodern concept of victimhood and noticing that he’s an intellectual property pirate who is hypocritically smearing Gafni as a plagiarist). Refusal to hear Marc out; ignoring what he does say. Instant willingness to characterize anyone showing sympathy to him as the latest manipulated victims of a Svengali-like nymphomaniac sexual predator. Uncritical acceptance of every unsavory allegation about Marc’s character (because how can so many things they read on the Internet possibly be wrong?) and a willingness to repeat Internet gossip as if it were a fact.
The execution of Troy Davis and the persecution of Marc Gafni
How anyone can believe such putrid un-integral posturing without having a shred of doubt about its truth or completeness is worth contemplating.
The Integral community doesn’t always have very Integral values, does it? I found out recently that if someone so much as suggests, “You know, Marc may be worth listening to,” on Integral Life, you will quickly get your comment denounced as “Not Useful” by the throngs. Come on.
How can people who in one breath vilify the Georgia officials who executed Troy Davis (a man likely to have been innocent) turn around and the next moment assert their certainty about Marc Gafni’s guilt about deeds that nobody has suggested are in any way criminal?
Not all the facts about the controversies have come into public view, and frankly I don’t think all of them ever will. Don’t we all have better things to spend our precious awareness on than who slept with whom, who knew what when, and who kept a secret and why? I’ve already read more than I care to know about Marc’s pillow talk.
I am not writing this post to defend Marc or anyone else. I do not accept every perspective offered by Marc as the unvarnished truth. But I would like to say out loud: hold your horses, people. Have some intellectual humility. Unless you are one of a handful of confidants of the aforementioned personalities, and probably even then, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE FORMING OPINIONS ABOUT.
Do you know who lies behind the anonymous character attacks on Marc Gafni, and why their words are really so angry and mean-spirited? Do you see how a small number of very vocal people with hidden agendas and unacknowledged shadows can manufacture controversy and inflate half-truths into The Master Narrative?
If I don’t know the truth, what makes you think you do? If people who have known Marc Gafni and his accusers for years struggle with knowing the full truth, what makes you think you do? If Ken Wilber is choosing for now to remain silent publicly, what makes you so sure making loud and hostile accusations is really so integral and wise?
There. I’ve gotten that off my chest. I’ll have more to say about Integral Ethics (and maybe more to say about the Marc Gafni controversies) once I’ve done some more homework. I’ve got hours of reading to do, chats/interviews to request with some of the personalities involved, and I have no pre-conceived idea about what I’m going to find out.
If your opinion about Marc Gafni isn’t All Quadrants and All Levels, maybe it should be
I’m willing to suspend judgment and let a more objective timeline emerge as I piece together various facts and try to sort out the Four Quadrants and All Levels of ego-development. That’s what Integral is supposed to be about, right? It’s largely about recognizing that perspectives taken without a comprehensive and inclusive view are partial, and need to be put into context. (In fact, Susanne Cook-Greuter’s developmental model labels the Teal altitude/Yellow vMEME/”Integral” level of ego-development maturity as “Context-Aware,” which is the term I prefer to use.
Here’s one perspective that helps to provide some of the context you would do well to consider. It comes from Marty, a psychotherapist and someone who knows Marc Gafni and finds him credible. In other words, he’s just the sort of person who the anti-Gafni mob routinely characterizes as a duped Kool-Aid drinker.
As you read, pay attention not only to the substance, but also the tone, openness, nuance, and decency. He writes on Bill Harryman’s blog regarding his post on sexual victimization:
My point is that, many of Marc’s critics feel it’s fair game to undercut anything he or his supporters/friends/colleagues say as (to summarize), “What do you expect of a sexual predator and his minions?” If everything he says is de facto to be questioned, suspect, why isn’t this also applicable to his accusers? In other words, if his (and his students, etc.) self-report is held as just that, why not everyone else in the “discussion”? Because someone cries foul, why does that de facto mean they are being truthful or accurate? I’m not, AT ALL, saying that’s true by definition. Please pause and hear that. And…what is said about Marc is true of every other human: people can lie, and people can distort to suit their conscious and unconscious agendas….
You know, weirdly enough, I really feel a respect for your [Federico's] conviction that I haven’t felt with any of the blog posts by William or other commenters. I think you’re multiply wrong, but sense that you’re not actually malicious in intent. (But I get you don’t seem to care for sarcasm. Which makes me sad.)
So: my bad for conflating what you’re defining as promiscuous with polyamory, in misunderstanding your point. I don’t see Marc advocating promiscuity–can you point that out in his writings or recordings or interviews or whatnot, because I haven’t seen it, i.e., as a shallow emphasis on multiple sex partners–but I agree promiscuity is by definition a shallow sexuality. I don’t particularly judge it–it’s just what it is, and that’s fairly shallow. And as a hypocrite for endorsing monogomy (at CWS event): I don’t think he was saying that needs to be true for him (or anyone else) all the time, did you? You read it as duplicity?
Also, you and others need to stop speaking about the two women “who were hurt.” Obviously the non-student feels hurt, but go back and read Marcy’s description, and PLEASE do not assume you know more than you do. It’s so disrespectful of her and of her taking responsibility for her actions, disempowering in the name of empowerment. (And as for her writing sounding the same as Marc, for Christ sake, she’s a student of Marc’s! I often sound like Wilber in writing style, not because he’s dictated what I then put my name on, but because I’m as student of his! Again, sheesh.)
Ok. So, I think you’re being too theoretical, and overreaching your own knowledge of the persons involved. Theoretically, and generally, I agree that most people probably are not able to have healthy polyamory, or rather, deep polyamory. In my experience personally and clinically, it usually is some form of covering up, bypassing, etc….
Also, I wonder how old you are, because at 42, I probably can’t count anymore how many times I’ve been an asshole towards people, particularly the ones closest to me. I could probably count on a hand how I wasn’t sincere, open, forthright, etc., just today. This is what we humans do, and as a therapist (are you studying to be/acting as a clinician, hence working with Masters?) my job is less to eradicate those actions as to encourage people to hold their own complexity, including their (and I’m assuming your) very, very dark places. Maybe you’ve attained saintliness, but in my experience, that kind of categorical statement about oneself means there’s bypassing going on. But I suppose you can have the benefit of the doubt.
Also–and this may be quibbling–the goal is to integrate the 1st tier levels, not overcome them. There’s no dominance of one level over another in integration.
So with Marc, can he fuck up and hurt people, and does he have a shadow? Of course. Has he shit to atone for? I’m sure. As a teacher (as me as a therapist) does he have high standards? Of course. But to call him “sick” goes way too far. Many will testify (as I did above) to his goodness, and value as a teacher, and kindness, etc. And you can’t simply write that off–well, you can, but it’s dishonest to simply respond with, “What does one expect from a bunch of tools?” Please be respectful in that way.
See for yourself how Marty’s sort of civil, subtle, restrained, measured, compassionate, multi-perspectival, multi-quadrant sensitive perspective is pretty typical of the “Marc Gafni defenders.”
See for yourself how, on the contrary, the “anti-Marc Gafni” cohort routinely writes inflammatory, one-sided, self-righteous, caustic, pouty, “I am one of Marc Gafni’s victims” diatribes now filling up the blogosphere’s comment boxes.
Draw the appropriate conclusions about how seriously to weigh the various points-of-view as best you can determine. Ask yourself, who sounds like the “adult in the room”?
Yes, reasonable people can disagree about whether Integral organizations should continue to hire Gafni for top leadership positions. But the intellectual arrogance piling up on the blogs is sickening.
More facts and perspectives will come out, more healing will take place, public and private meetings will be held, policies will be developed and instituted — I’m pretty sure — and we will all move on … soon enough.
Remember Socrates: “I know that I know nothing.”


Joe good to see a voice of reason. Althou it seems simple. I agree with you.
I am not a writer or affiliated to any doctrine nor have had much to to with the IL community. I have been a member of Integral Naked for many years more because I like Kens Vision the talks and the perspectives he has introduced me to and happy to support it. The monthly 2 CDS and DVD are good to have.
“Ken Wilber has not made a public statement,” Points to a Fake fire.
But yeah it’s shown a few “colors” of the “Members” ( to avoid the classification of “Integral Community” Which after this would not quite fully cut it for me)
Here’s a couple of my posts for the public eye.
My take is we have all got ourselves to this present moment in time, with the decisions that we made to this point.
Marc Said “All that said, it is the motivations that are still presently hidden from the public eye that blew this up way beyond any reason, decency and proportion. Sad to say. ”
Yeap, the eye of a perfect teacher would be to spot the win/win situation , be clear on it before hand, then decide if there was the emotional maturity to move forward and follow the agreement through by both parties . Ultimately its the wise teachers call to decide when to and when not to.
Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche never seem to get into too much trouble with it.
Marc chalk it up to experience, take the lessons and move on is all we can ever do.
Much Love
————————————————————————-
Others building cases on well nothing but fuzzy logic. Facts built to suit already made assumptions.
“Tell me, if you punch someboy in the face in a relationship, and some japanese guy with a camera gets you on tape and put it on youtube and “it” start a scandal…
where did the scandal started? If your response is in the picture, or in Youtube, or in the bloggers
commenting on youtube.”
You can swing this sort of logic to whatever suits you.
EG
Consider this scenario.
2 Japanese guys with a cameras get a Man caught on film with a priceless painting under his arm leaving a burning building and they both put it on youtube
Guy A Video Caption ” Man caught looting burning building . ”
Guy B Video Caption ” Hero saving a priceless painting from a fire”
Controversy sells Bloggers jump on Guy A . Now whom started the scandal ? Was there ever one ? News Papers use this “logic” to cover things up and make stories out of nothing.
Same event, completely different interpretation and the context is very important to determine, was the guy a hero or a thief ?
Really only people with ALL of the facts can determine it.
“In simple terms: I don’t trust anybody that hasn’t make their mind yet.” I am disappointed that you have never met me and yet don’t trust me. That shows a guilty until proven innocent mindset.
In my case I have not have or seen the facts so IMHO no one should be passing any judgement on anyone.
If someone could actually link to the page where the ” Undisputed facts from all parties sit ” as I have yet to see it. Then I could form some sort of opinion on it.
I like to work with instant respect until proven otherwise. I don’t agree any one whom can make a firm decision with out all of the facts
Namaste
Al
Good points, all, Al. I think there is going to be some overdue scrutiny of what people mean by “Integral Community.”
Thanks Joe
Yeap its a little more than being able to afford the $14.95 a month. Although I think I pay $50 ( extra for the Physical Disks Which BTW are many months backlogged. That’s not Integral disk sending out management by any stretch.)
Actually Community Membership ($0.00)
This membership level allows you to create a Member Profile, and post comments and blog posts in the community.
So maybe their are posters whom have never seen any “Integral Premium content “.
That would explain a few things.
Thanks Joe
I think your blog is interesting. I would like to comment on a few ideas. First I’ll say that I don’t have any particular ax to grind against Marc other than I don’t like to see people unnecessarily harmed in general.
You said; “People who get in a tizzy because the women were arguably students of his wouldn’t bat an eye if he entered into a business transaction with a student, but this controversy involves sex”. If a teacher entered into a business transaction with a student, exploited the student, and stole his money I certainly would bat an eye. I can only speak for myself but for me the issue is not sex but the ever present potential for a teacher to take advantage of his students who might be in such a vulnerable position that they don’t even realize it.
You referred to Marcy but not to the other women. I would like to know more about her and her reactions to this. Have we heard from her yet?
I also like hearing you say; “I’ll probably have more to say about Integral Ethics once I’ve done some more homework”. I would love to hear what you have to say about this. The lack of ethics and civility among people hanging around integral circles is alarming to me. I would love to hear your ideas on this and what you think could be done about it.
I’ll also cross post this at Integrallife.
Thanks, Stanley.
I updated the sentence about business transactions above since it was too vague. It now reads:
“People who get in a tizzy because the women were arguably students of his wouldn’t bat an eye if he entered into a legal business transaction with a student using a Non-Disclosure Agreement, but this controversy involves sex.”
Over here http://integrallife.com/member/john-dupuy/blog/my-opinion-marc-gafni-situation Federico agreed with my statement about your quote on business;
Posted September 26th, 2011 by Federico Parra in response to Thanks Joe
“In fact, there is no basis for Joe thesis about people preferring business betrayal to sex betrayal”.
You replied to him as follows; Hi Fede,
Greetings. My exact quote was:
People who get in a tizzy because the women were arguably students of his wouldn’t bat an eye if he entered into a legal business transaction with a student using a Non-Disclosure Agreement, but this controversy involves sex, teachers, and students.
And I replied to you as this;
Posted September 27th, 2011 by Stanley in response to It was a statement made in an informal context; not…
Just for the record, I copied and pasted your exact quote. After I called you on it you later changed it. You acknowledged this on your website; “Joe Perez says:
September 25, 2011 at 20:45
Thanks, Stanley.
I updated the sentence about business transactions above since it was too vague. It now reads:
“People who get in a tizzy because the women were arguably students of his wouldn’t bat an eye if he entered into a legal business transaction with a student using a Non-Disclosure Agreement, but this controversy involves sex.”
But in your comment to Fede you tried to make it sound like your new changed quote was your original exact quote; ” My exact quote was …” It’s not really a huge deal but I never saw you slippery like this before. I have always known you to be much better than this. What’s going on buddy?
I do agree you with this one; “By the way, I think an Integral Ethics policy ought to prohibit exploitation of another person’s vulnerability regardless of whether the issue is sexual or monetary”. If you feel any need to redeem yourself this would be a good area to work in.
I will cross post this on your site.
As I said above it’s not that huge of a matter but come on now? Why not just be honest and straight forward?
If I feel a need to redeem myself? Major. Asshat. Not. Dignifying. You.
Hi Joe,
Just a quick appreciation for your post here. Really. I’ve been reading through the long series of comments after John Dupuy’s post at Integral Life (http://integrallife.com/member/john-dupuy/blog/my-opinion-marc-gafni-situation), at the end of which I felt so sickened, at a certain level, and tutored, at another.
I remember being a newly minted political radical in my early early 20′s, when the first Gulf War was launched, and protesting on the streets of Sacramento with my colleagues and friends. Up until then, my nose was burried in my English Literature degree, and my view of the world was filtered through 19th century novels and early American poetry. So when, after a day on the streets banging drums and waving placards, I got home and watched the news coverage and was ASTOUNDED at how different the message was as portrayed on TV, both in what was selectively quoted, and, visually, selectively framed. I found myself sputtering, “But, but, that’s not what we meant! That’s only a snippet of the whole peach that day!” And then the dawning, and shocking awareness, “I think they actually MEANT to distort us…”
So, that experience left me, politically, a bit like the Wedding Guest in Coleridge’s poem, “a sadder and a wiser man,” on how context matters in understanding what actually is being said (in this realm, I’ll be ever grateful to Noam Chomsky and his students).
And I’m not a newbie when it comes to dissembling and lies, conscious and unconscious. Wilber has talked about psychotherapy as the practice (to paraphrase from memory) of confronting a client’s lies about their lives and helping them move towards, and emotionally accept, what’s actually true. Which is a delicate process that requires both confrontation and deep compassion, and the dynamic and (on good days) skillful balancing of the two. So I’m used to sitting with and tolerating a lot of stunning darkness and equally stunning light in my office. But, in my work, I’m actually hired to tease out the truth–that’s what my clients are wanting me to ally with and help them grieve their way into and live from.
But here, with this “scandle,” there’s only exposure without transformation, or even just simply dialogue.
I can understand intellectually and clinically what’s going on, know the neurological, psychological, and spiritual terrain with at least a journeyman’s competence, and could do a pretty good job therapeutically if any of these players sat on my couch. But at an emotional and personal and somatic level, spending an hour on those Integral Life comments to Dupuy’s post, it feels like I’ve been sitting in an acid bath. The lack of kindness, the arrogant and self-serving assumptions, the deep shadow which portrays itself as enlightened, the unapologetic malice, and maybe the worst of all (which feels strange to say, but…) the profound intellectual dishonesty both about Marc’s position as well as Marc’s contributions to Integral and the Integral community over the last four years–well, again, like an acid bath.
Having some understanding of the behind the scenes of this situation, and then comparing it to what is narrated on the blogs, is a comparable situation to those early 90′s days in the streets. I guess there’s work on my part, given how shaky I’m feeling right now, in letting go of some (apparently) rather Pollyanna notions of community and my fellow humans, and accepting more deeply and fully the way shadow plays out in life and in the psyches of all of us (I thought I was fairly accepting, or at least hardened, at this point…). Which, I must say, is not a move towards bitterness, at all, but towards a broken heartedness that, having had many of these experiences including there in the gridwork of downtown Sac, I know leads to a deeper capacity to love, accept, and engage in more and more skillful combat based in both love of truth (as best I can make it out) and a compassionate/ruthless relation to lies. So, a kind of robust grief.
And, ironically, it is Marc’s teaching, and then recently, Marc himself, who has pointed to and supported the value of this love/confrontation in me, this breaking open, and through all this I have seen, directly, with my own eyes, him maintaining this stance through all the vile incivility in a way that keeps teaching me in the way a teacher is supposed to: not just through words, but through action, deeds, and by watching him “tie his shoelaces.”
Well, so much for a short reply. Again, deep heartfelt appreciation for taking this on, knowing that you must have as busy and complex a life as anyone. Your balance and civility and balance of open listening and skepticism is so, to my eyes and ears, necessary in providing a contrast to the shrill lynching squads that a person like Harryman represents (but only that, represents, as the Integral Life thread shows), so that the “undecideds” now and in the future can have something to compare the acid discourse to, both in content and especially in tone and example.
Much love and respect,
MartyC
Hi Joe
I’m a UK based musician with a decade-long layman’s interest in things Integral. Please excuse the length of my comment here, but I believe it is important to take care in fleshing out comments made online – they can last a long time!
Like you I also “really didn’t want to have to wade into these murky waters. But the integral community I cared about deeply was in pain, grief, and anger. It might even be the most serious controversy faced by several prominent organizations such as Integral Institute, Integral Life, Center for World Spirituality, and Sounds True (a publisher friendly to Integral authors). So I read the blogs and began to form opinions.”
In my case I observed that the opinions I formed were not favourable towards Marc, but at the same I didn’t trust those opinions completely because I was getting all the information second-hand online, and because I could barely get a feeling for the possible motivations behind many public statements. I’m not a student of Marc’s and do not resonate with his online teachings, but this is of course no reason to pre-judge until clearer information might become available.
So I appreciate your reasoned stance here:
“…hold your horses, people. Have some intellectual humility. Unless you are one of a handful of confidants of the aforementioned personalities, and probably even then, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE FORMING OPINIONS ABOUT.”
I agree – I for one have deliberately held back from expressing opinions on IL and elsewhere for this very reason – we do not have enough detailed information about what happened. If you are currently engaging in putting time and energy into looking deeper into this recent series of events, then I believe you will be doing us all a good service. Thank you.
In order to start to clarify some of the points you may be currently seeking out, I did ask Marc questions on his website in the comment section of 50+ point article he posted on Sept 13th, but it seems the comments section is a bit glitchy and I can’t access it to see if he has actually replied.
For me the important matter is not about sex, nor about monogamy or polyamory, nor even sex between teacher and student, it’s not about cultural sexual shadow nor the pitfalls of online “debate”. All of these issues are being discussed and pointed out online already and they are necessary to consider when trying to reach a deeper understanding. As you say, Bill Harryman’s blog didn’t emerge in a cultural vacuum. However, the area which has received least attention is the details of “what actually took place” (as much as this can be agreed upon in a postmodern environment!). When I do look at what scant detail is available, the key issue that comes up for me is about fundamental questions about honesty and keeping promises. The key question is, can Marc’s words as a teacher be trusted if he himself is not even coming close to walking his talk, as some of the negative blogging suggests? And if the negative blogging can be shown to be false or highly suspect then there is no fair reason for Robb Smith to drop Marc from ISE.
You said: “Remember, the matter involved nothing more sinister than a man separated from his wife (who knew that he had no intention to be monogamous) who dated two adult women who each gave full consent to both the relationship and keeping it out of the public eye (until one of them turned against him for reasons that are not public knowledge.)”
I really hope this is all there is to it.
However, Tami Simon’s letter that started this whole thing states: “Marc explicitly stated to me that he was not going to be involved in sexual relationships with students, that even if he deemed such relationships to be consensual, he did not believe that engaging in relationships with students would support his efforts to be an effective teacher. In considering publishing Marc’s work, the most important thing to me was the actual quality of the written work. When he submitted “Your Unique Self” in its edited form, I appreciated the content and message of the book. The quality of the book combined with the force of his conviction regarding how he would conduct himself as a teacher moving forward convinced me to take a risk on publishing his work.
In the past several weeks, new and incontrovertible information came to light that made me aware that Marc was involved in a sexual relationship with a student and that the relationship was shrouded in secrecy. There was an obvious lack of alignment between Marc’s words to me and his actions.”
I draw the following conclusions from this; either Tami is misremembering, or worse lying about, an explicit commitment made to her by Marc before she agreed to publish him, or neither of the women Marc has recently had relationships with were actually his students. However, if it is the case that one of the women was his students at the time of entering the relationship and if Tami is correct in her recollection of the commitment made to her by Marc, I would see no other conclusion than that he has broken a promise to her.
Now we all probably at some time break promises. Yesterday I told my wife I would be home by 5.00pm but didn’t make it back till closer to 5.30pm – I broke my promise and I apologised. But I think it is reasonable to suggest that there are some commitments and promises that, if broken, will have far greater repercussions than being half an hour late.
IF Tami is not misremembering and not lying (I have no reason to suggest she is) and IF one of the women involved was a student (I believe Marcy has said online that she was?), and since I have not yet seen a statement by Marc that clarifies this very specific point either way then my currently (still-forming) opinion and gut feeling is that I trust Marc less as a result. If he were to make a statement challenging Tami’s recollection, or if he were to agree with her words and that Marcy was one of his students, and he apologised for breaking his promise, then I might trust his honesty in that moment at least, if not his reliability.
Also, Tami’s note states: “I learned about Marc’s sexual relationship with a student from another woman who was having a sexual relationship with Marc. This woman was also asked by Marc to keep her relationship with him a secret. In talking with this woman, I learned how emotionally damaging this secrecy was for her, how it cut her off from emotional support and connection. I also learned quite a bit about how she felt manipulated by Marc, about how often she witnessed Marc telling lies to cover his tracks, and how upset she was to find herself caught in such a web of lies.”
If we trust Tami’s account, and if we trust what the other woman told her, then it was Marc who asked her to keep the relationship secret, or as he words it in his article “in a private container”. (Right now I personally find his use of this phrase to be dissembling, but I’m willing to be persuaded otherwise.) Marc says in his article the “private container” was by mutual agreement. I would like to ask him if he suggested it first or the other woman suggested it first. If Marc suggested it, and had to persuade her, then this is not what I normally understand as “mutual”. If the other person suggested it first then Marc was put in a difficult position by requiring to keep the relationship secret/private. It would therefore be good to know who suggested it first.
Furthermore, the woman claims she saw Marc lying to others in order to keep the relationship secret/private. She also says she felt manipulated by him. Now it could well be that Tami was misled by an emotionally upset ex-partner who exaggerated or even outright lied to her about Marc’s actions. But since it ties in with previous statements about Marc by others who had been in close relationship with him, such as his third wife, it is possible that the other woman was not lying to Tami. IF that is the case then Marc has been lying. I wonder if we will ever find out. We do not know who the other woman who spoke to Tami is, nor what previous connection she may have had with Marc or others in his circle, nor what motivations she may have had to be so anti-Marc. Again it would be good to know more on this point if it were possible and appropriate to make such information available online.
I also wonder if Marc was involved with the two other women during the same period of time. If the relationships were concurrent, I also wonder whether part of the mutually agreed “privacy container” included that of informing the other person whether or not they were involved in a second relationship. In other words, was there a clearly agreed contract of polyamory or monogamy. (Of course if the 2 relationships were not concurrent then this is a non-issue, but right now we don’t know.)
In his article of Sept 13th: http://www.marcgafni.com/?p=3053&lan=english (sorry can’t seem to post the link) he makes a remarkable statement. He says: “One of the huge problems with holding a container of privacy in a relationship is that it almost always necessitates lying. Yet in certain circumstances, lying can be the most ethical decision. You really have to look at it in a case-by-case context.” I can see how, for example in a life or death matter of espionage, how lying to save someone’s life is ethically the higher choice. I can see how it could be difficult to be 100% open when 2 parties you are involved with might be acting against each other and you are stuck in the middle. But to actually choose to put oneself in such a situation by choosing privacy/secrecy, and then to claim that it is ethically right to lie about it…… well I remain totally unconvinced on this point. If Marc was lying to others around him as a result of decisions he had made then I hope he will say so specifically, and not just offer a general and vague statement of apology as he has done here: “And I apologize always for any way in which I could have showed up better. Or caused hurt. And ask for forgiveness for the inevitable hurt that happens in the complexity of it all, even when we have the best intentions.”
Joe, just to balance out your points about “who is the adult in the room” in terms of online discussion, perhaps you missed these comments by MartyC and HeatherUK :
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=13617569&postID=4217930576277428168&isPopup=true
Here’s a taster:
“(Full disclosure: Marty is my husband. We regularly have threesomes with hippopotami. I am a private study student of Marc’s (oooh, I guess that makes me tainted meat and just easy mindless prey therefore getting to disregard everything I have said as hysterical, mind controlled sheep girl!!). Yes, I am well educated, with an actual bullshit detector. Yes, I am fucking blonde. No, I did not fucking sleep with Marc. Yes, I do so fucking enjoy engaging RED, we need more of it. Let’s see, what else can I say to completely turn you off… Oh, I’m a violent, video game playing nerd who thinks “enlightenment” means you become an empty, eros-less, mind-fucked zombie. That should do it.)”
Now I actually find this kind of voice quite effective at times, I just didn’t think your attempt at suggesting – pro-Gafni = polite, well-mannered, considerate, anti-Gafni= always using blunt, nasty language – should go unchallenged.
Also, t hese more considered comments by Bill Harryman back in 2008 might show that he has at least looked at his own possible projections in all of this: http://integral-options.blogspot.com/2008/07/marc-gafni-update-confessionapology.html
On a personal note, as I have been writing this, I have noticed that as I spend even more time focussing on Marc’s own statements, I realise that despite my best efforts I find myself becoming more distrustful of his words. It is a curious feeling. I would really like to get greater clarification on what interactions took place – I’m looking forward to your further posts Joe.
Thanks again
James Barrow
P.S. And now there is another statement just arrived online, comments section of Integral Options Cafe by someone called Sarah :
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=13617569&postID=4217930576277428168&isPopup=true
claiming that Marc “and Marcy have been sexually involved for at least a year, long before he and Mariana “split up”.
Is this yet another example of the damaging, anonymous and unprovable slander that can be committed online, or is it as close to being an accurate statement of truth as possible. We should ask Marc and/or Marcy. He says in his article that it was AFTER he “stepped out of his domestic romantic container” with Mariana that he began his relationship with Marcy. Am I adding to the dirt by even mentioning it here, or am I facilitating a clearing and an edging towards greater truth? Oh dear. Whoever is lying, I need a shower.
Thank you, James. Excellent questions. I appreciate your thoughtfulness; will keep them in mind as I dig deeper.
P.S.: I also take well your remark to question my question about who are the “adults in the room.” I hadn’t seen the remark you mentioned when I wrote the comment on my blog post. With something hot and emotionally charged like this, everyone (“Gafni supporters” and present company included) can get a little childish. It’s human nature.
I’ve read some Integral Life bloggers/commenters who are attacking me mercilessly over there, inventing stuff out of thin air, trying to line me up as the next Integral figure to scandalize. OMG. I wish I had an Adavan. Thank God for having a sense of humor.
Joe – I appreciate your time in reading my lengthy post. Hope it’s helpful in some way.
I know what you mean about conditions over at IL forum. There are some brilliant minds over there but it is so messy. Stefano is doing his best as a (relatively new) moderator, and Corey as editor has promised a total revamp in the next few months I believe, which will hopefully make the place feel “safer”.
Re. “the adult in the room” point – yes, it was just an add-on to the main issues but I hope it gave a little balance re. use of language. Actually I think Heather UK’s post felt “cleaner” than some others which used less forthright language. Yes she was cursing but her comments seemed more self aware. Ken says healthy Red should be included, right?
Best wishes
James
By George, I think he’s fucking got it!
Awww, thanks James! I think I lurve you! (I really mean that.)
PS – I do so swear (my right hand is up… well, not really since I’m typing) that I have the capability to be less Red, I just choose not to.
Heather UK – Integral Red FTFW!!!
Joe I am so grateful for your thoughtful post. Thank you for having the courage and compassion to wade into these difficult waters. May voices of reason, like yours, help the community see itself with more clarity and clean up our individual and collective act.
Joe, your compassionate concern for Marc shines through your words!
I have been in email contact with Marc and want to share here how that went down (and can forward those emails to you, if you wish).
First, a word on what I wrote on William Harryman’s blog = a short, “kudos for having the courage for exposing Marc’s shady ways”, but the Healer in me KNEW better that that kind of drive-by is pretty lame.
After I read Marc’s response to John D. (on Integral Life) I decided to email contact Marc and offer words of support.
(Email topic) “Keep the Light burning!”
(after introduction), “I’m a tough cookie blogger on matters of Soul evolution. I’m aware of your present plight dear brother-in-spirit. My heart goes out to you and all who got triggered by your ‘story’… It’s late, but I just read your blog response to John and want to extend my words of support.
As you already know, Marc, behind you is a Power beyond your comprehension, so depend not on your own strenght! Pray for wisdom that you may work in the right way. . .Pray for courage that you may not become faint-hearted.
Your personal contribution towards the great plan for the evolution of mankind matters…
Surrender in true humility to the Divine Self.
Forgive your self and others our all-too-human shortcomings!
I heard that “patience” really means ‘confidence in God-spirit (Divine Self) which patiently is working into us a ‘beautiful purpose’, so take heart!
Wishing you peace of heart an mind, Marc.
(signed) Helen
Marc’s response:
thank you and much love to you. i aprpreciated your note. if you have any feedback on the post below it would be welkome.
http://www.marcgafni.com/?p=3002
marc
My response:
“I did scan that blog and do have a comment…I don’t have a problem with the word “polyamory”, since in a truly “cosmic” (your quote) context, it (literally) means Uncompromising, Unconditional and Compassionate Love-Service to Humanity. . .
This kind of LOVE-making baffles the not yet ‘claimed’ by the Beloved mind — and I get it, but there it is.
That’s what (in your words) “We need more Eros, not less”, means to me.
Erotic Union with the cosmic Beloved implies literally that! because one’s Bliss body is always ‘on’ erotically (sexually) — without which I couldn’t claim my Supracosmic Tonglen Duty (work).
It’s hocking, to be sure, but very honest-REAL all of my blog testimonies about how this very long process unfolded for me on subtle and causal levels.
From one of my blogs this (related) excerpt: “Those who think that practicing tantra yoga with a flesh partner will bring same outcome, are misguided. They are welkome to do that and think that, of course! That’s none of my business, as long as they don’t insist theirs is the last word!”
from http://spiritspeaks-theofilia.blogspot.com/2010/08/torsion-fields-shivashakti.html
and, http://spiritspeaks-theofilia.blogspot.com/2010/08/shakti-shiva-has-no-need-of-gold.html
Told you, Marc, that I’m a tough cookie blogger! — but you asked, right? — and from where I stand, this is POLYAMORY 101.
Shakti and Shivas love-making generates descendence of Supermind (Sri Aurobindo’s lingo) .
I have to be true to the Divine-in-me and would never offer anything less than TRUE and BEAUTIFUL.
By the same token, I don’t wish to change your (or anyone elses’) ideas about anything, Marc!
You asked for feedback and I can only offer what I truly know.”
Helen (Theofilia)
Thanks, Helen. Let us all aspire to be true to the Divine within. Blessings, Joe
Joe,
Will you be spending hours listening to the women who have spoken out against Marc. You know, for the sake of fair and balanced conclusions? Or are they all lumped into the “I am one of Marc Gafni’s victims” catagory?
~leela
I’m not going to be listening only to one side. My focus, however, is on the current controversy, and I’ve made no decision about how much I need to dig into old allegations. So far as I know, no woman has spoken out against Marc in the current controversy.
Joe, you say, “So far as I know, no woman has spoken out against Marc in the current controversy.”
Surely you’ve read Tami Simon’s comments about “the current controversy.” What she says is not about “old allegations.” Of course Tami could be mistaken, lying, delusional, “first-tier,” “conventional” as opposed to “post-conventional,” etc., but I have to wonder if you’ve taken her statement (posted in an Integral Options Cafe post to which you posted a comment with a link to your blog) into consideration. From the end of Tami’s statement:
“In talking with this woman, I learned how emotionally damaging this secrecy was for her, how it cut her off from emotional support and connection. I also learned quite a bit about how she felt manipulated by Marc, about how often she witnessed Marc telling lies to cover his tracks, and how upset she was to find herself caught in such a web of lies.
“Discovering this new information, it became clear to me that it was not in integrity for me personally or for Sounds True as a company to publish Marc’s books or to support him as a spiritual teacher in the world. I do not trust Marc Gafni. I do not trust what he says, and I do not trust that he acts in the best interests of his students or his professional alliances.”
( http://integral-options.blogspot.com/2011/09/breaking-marc-gafnis-sexual-impropriety.html )
I misspoke. I should have said, “No woman Marc was in a relationship with has spoken out publicly against Marc in the current controversy.”
I will say I would love to talk with Tami Simon about this, and will be requesting an interview when I figure out how to contact her.
Bloggers are journalists! I can’t accept Tami’s perspective on face value. Other perspectives that I know about conflict with it, and I want to be fair. I give limited weight to hearsay, as we all should.
Hi Joe. Thanks for your reply. I commend you for making an effort to go beyond “He said, she said” journalism regarding these allegations.
Here is the difference I see between Bill Harryman and Joe. Bill has spoken extensively to the major players in this drama, including Tami, Robb and other Integral leaders, and most importantly, key women involved in both this controversy and the one Gafni went through five years ago. He knows the full story. As for Joe, he’s spoken to Gafni himself, a man who has proven himself again and again to be both a pathological liar and a master manipulator. If you don’t believe it, ask why virtually all of his previous supporters over the years, his students and co-teachers, the friends who knew him best, have ended up leaving him in disgust. These are people who were once as avid in their defense of him as Joe and MartyC and Sally Kempton are now, if not more so.
Another difference: Bill works with victims of sexual violence and understands the psychology of both victims and predators. Joe clearly does not.
At some point the whole truth will emerge and Joe will understand that he’s been exploited, like so many others in Gafni’s history. But until then, enjoy the ride, and remember that there are many ways to be seduced.
Well, Simcha, if that’s the (only?) difference you see between Bill Harryman and myself, then there’s nothing to worry about. I’m talking to and will talk to Tami, Robb, and other integral leaders. You are mistaken though in saying that Bill has spoken to “key women involved in … this controversy.” The one woman directly involved in this controversy (2011) who has spoken out has spoken vehemently against the sort of disempowering stuff coming from Bill’s blog, and Bill has stated that he has not spoken to the other woman, much as he has tried to fish her out.
Bill has denied speaking to Marc Gafni, saying that Marc twice tried to phone him some years ago but he refused to hear him out and then he cited Gafni’s attempt to explain his side of the story as evidence of Gafni’s creepy ways. The BIG POINT in my blog post is that much in Marc Gafni’s story has not been told yet; what has been told — on his blog — has been IGNORED by Bill Harryman and his ilk who have already lit their torches and donned their pitchforks.
Bill claims to have spoken to a woman from Israel, I think. I’ll review hours worth of reading material on the Israel allegations, and I won’t turn away anyone who has something relevant to tell me now. (Contact information is in the sidebar of this blog. I’m listening.)
I don’t think that’s actually the difference you see between Bill and myself. I think that’s just window dressing. From what I’ve seen so far, I think every allegation you’ve just cited about Marc is already disproven or deeply questionable, yet you persist in passing along rumor, falsehood, and half-truths shamelessly. I hope you care about the truth. I hope you don’t just want blood, because more and more that’s what the Gafni lynch mob is sounding like…
I wonder if what you really perceive is that Bill sees the world from the same prism you do, so you trust what he has to say. I seem to look at the world differently; my perspective seems suspect and questionable to you, and it reminds you of some part of yourself that is easily exploited. I’ll stop there.
“P.S.: I also take well your remark to question my question about who are the “adults in the room.” I hadn’t seen the remark you mentioned when I wrote the comment on my blog post. With something hot and emotionally charged like this, everyone (“Gafni supporters” and present company included) can get a little childish. It’s human nature.”
I would totally agree with the whole thing about the “adults in the room” or being childish, if I hadn’t poured over the posts for literally hours to make sure I was not coming from an off the cock response. But that it DID reflect my voice. Meet me sometime. You’ll see I don’t pull punches much. And the voice I feel both sides should indeed engage… Integral Red. Not the ranting and raving, spittle flying, but the fresh, comfortable engagement of a good “Fuck you!”, “No, fuck you, too!!” “Ahh, now we can fucking talk.” Plus, I think that comment of mine was taken out of context since it’s at the very end of the post, although I do happily encourage you to go read it at the site, I slaved over that one. Am I a child? No. Can I act that way sometimes? Sure. But not in this situation, it wouldn’t be appropriate. But maybe a verbal ass-kicking… that might be.
Thanks again, Joe for your posts.
Heather UK – Integral Red FTFW!
All this should have been anticipated, although not in the way most folks might think. If you look at the changes taking place in the Integral movement over the last year or so, it’s obvious that they have taken a more Dionysian approach to getting out the Integral message.
Integral seems to have moved away from the Apollonian approach (the Integral theory side of the house) and seems to have embraced the myth of Dionysus. I had previously thought it a bit surprising that Wilber was co-branding with teachers such as Jean Houston, Deepak, Gafni and other charismatic and intoxicating New Age luminaries, but now it makes perfect sense.
By taking the Dionysian approach to reach the YOUNG and provide them with a STATE experience, Integral is making an “generational end-run” around the BLUE and ORANGE power brokers and around the MGM (mean green meme) Academics. This will bear fruit 15-30 years from now, but in the meantime the collateral “Dionysian excesses” that go along with the approach are UNAVOIDABLE.
In a sense, this is also the “Socrates” move. And to the BLUE & ORANGE parents of these kids it probably does look like Wilber is “corrupting the youth of Athens.”
But the controversies over folks like Marc Gafni and Genpo Roshi OF COURSE go with the territory of this approach. It’s a calculated risk. And assuming that the Socrates move was intentional, Wilber must have known that these kinds of controversies were bound to happen. If it’s their intention to impregnate as many young people as possible with the seed of the new paradigm, and they’re using Dionysian methods (intoxicating state changes), then as this is happening on the mental and emotional levels, of course it’s going to also spill over into the physical as well.
You can call it a Faustian bargain or a Dionysian one, but the folks at Integral are certainly smart enough to know that this was a risk and one they were apparently willing to take.
Joe
“Pan’s apologist”
If Gafni is innocent, why did he flee Israel?