Exposed! On Bill Harryman’s exposé on Marc Gafni’s personal relationships

I know people on the Integral blogs have been chatting a lot about sexual abuse allegations, and I’ve been watching the flow of discourse and contemplating when and how to best wade into the discussion. But I’d rather talk about a movie just now. Steven Soderbergh’s Contagion is the most compelling and intelligent film I’ve seen in years, unrivaled in the complexity and nuance with which it examines ethics in a time of worldwide crisis.

The character closest to the role of villain is Allen (Jude Law), a conspiracy theorist and blogger drunk on his own power. At his worst, Allen incites death-dealing public panic and engages in unethical and illegal profiteering as a result of his blogging. When at last Allen is arrested, a cop says to him, “If I could lock up your computer too, I would.”

Despite his corruption, Allen leaves the jail defiant and unremorseful, so convinced of his righteousness that he continues his past behavior without pause. He’s a white knight to many. He’s one to tell truth to power, they might say. He engages in “real journalism,” they might say.

Allen is close to a villain, but he seems to have a legitimate role to play. He exposes a questionable and possibly illegal communication between Dr. Ellis Cheever (Laurence Fishburne), a high-up figure at the Centers for Disease Control, and his girlfriend. He promotes a homeopathic remedy whose impact on the MEV-1 virus might be beneficial. He applies pressure on the government to communicate more clearly and directly.

Allen is deeply immersed in a postmodern worldview, caught up in its suspicion towards those in power, quick to shine a spotlight on selfish motivations and power interests, and eager to deconstruct the narratives offered by establishment players. He uses his blog as a vehicle of performance art because it’s the only tool in his arsenal to combat the crisis all around him.

He never even notices that he is making matters worse (by inciting panic) or directing precious attention into diversionary sideshows (by revealing Dr. Cheever’s scandal). At a time when the world most needs clear-headed leadership, he creates doubt and division. At a time when the world needs to generate new systems more highly integrated than ever before, he gets people to think about personalities and peccadilloes instead of policies and programs.

The Dr. Marc Gafni sideshow

Recently Bill Harryman has pushed controversy about a spiritual teacher out of private conversations into the blogosphere, where he insisted that “Integral Leadership” must comment on his scandalous posts and Facebook updates or they’re chicken. The point of all this, he says:

My mission is to help prevent any other women from being victimized by Marc Gafni.

I don’t know Marc Gafni personally; however, I enjoyed his leadership of the ISE 2 event last year. By almost all accounts, he’s a flawed but enormously talented man with a great many gifts to offer the world. I’m not deeply familiar with his writings, but I respect the work he’s done in building more complex and post-conventional ways of thinking about a variety of subjects.

Gafni has also taken a fair amount of criticism of his behavior involving past teacher/student relationships. Most recently, he’s been accused of having polyamorous relationships with two women who consented both to the relationship and to keeping it secret. One of them wrote:

I am a fully empowered adult woman who has been working on behalf of what I want to bring into the world. In the natural course of doing so, I have stepped into many different roles and ways of relating, and done so in the most responsible way I know. One of these included for a time an intimate dynamic with Marc that expressed itself sexually. To suggest that this violated our student-teacher relationship, or that I was in any way victimized, is actually a degradation of the feminine, and of the masculine too.

Gafni’s paid a heavy price for the mistakes he’s made over the past five years, having been expelled from various spiritual groups. Most recently, he’s lost a publishing deal with Tami Simon (according to information published on Bill Harryman’s blog) and even Integral Life is severing its ties with Gafni and his organization, saying among other things, “we will keep fire starters away from our home.”

Firestarters and firefighters

Robb Smith, CEO of Integral Life, wrote a post on the controversy called “Where I Stand.” He clearly and concisely unpacked the Integral community’s ambivalent relationship with Marc, who he has called a friend, and acknowledges that his past defense of Marc may not have been the right call.

Robb focuses attention on changes that must be made (e.g., an ethics policy for IL contributors) so lessons are learned and mistakes not repeated. All in all, I’d characterize his approach as clarity within complexity, a forward-leaning orientation that isn’t afraid to acknowledge that there is messiness and ambiguity not easily tackled in a blog post.

Overall, when I read the responses of Diane Hamilton, Tami Simon, Marcy, and even Marc Gafni himself, I am proud of the caliber of intelligence and compassion and level-headedness displayed by all. Nowhere do I get the feeling that Integral Leadership is defending a fiefdom or angling to defend a lucrative niche or sweeping shadows under the carpet.

The major players in the drama exude sincerity and a strong desire to do what’s right, not fear or anger. Nowhere do I get the sense that anyone is acting merely to defend his/her own behavior instead of acting with genuine concern for bringing into the world a greater truth and goodness that is wanting to emerge.

Gafni’s own passionate defense of post-conventional relationships, polyamory, and post-postmodern analysis of power dynamics is a compelling read … even if one wishes that the author wasn’t such a highly interested party to the astute analysis. One isn’t quite sure whether Marc is a fire starter, or a man who mostly shows up at the scene of a burning bush.

When bloggers attack

Scandals among leadership occur in every organization, party, and movement … and the Integral movement is no exception. But without the activity of Bill Harryman’s “attack dog” blog posts, might the whole thing have played out differently? And if so, would it have been for better or for worse?

Here’s where I stand. I think Bill’s blog posts were fair game and conducted with well-intentioned desire to publish the truth, even if doing so put a great big target on Bill’s back. I’m glad he wrote on the topic and grateful he had the courage to bring up uncomfortable subjects. I think he had (and still has) a valuable role to play in the unfolding of the story.

But let’s not pretend that Bill’s posts were a great model of second-tier or integral consciousness at work. He certainly exploited a legitimate investigative journalistic opportunity in writing about the story he did, but his work is tainted by his avowed motivation: a crusade to prevent women from being “victimized” by Marc Gafni.

Bill insists that he’s motivated by concern for abused women, and I am not interested in questioning his motivations per se. But within what bigger context is his concern situated, and how is the concern variously constructed by different worldviews operating in our midst? Bill seems merely to buy into the usual understandings of victimhood in our culture. Where is the integral vision and how does it show up in his blogging? To be blunt, any semblance of an Integral approach is missing-in-action on Harryman’s “Integral Options Cafe.”

In Bill’s story, he’s the hero and Marc’s the villain. But maybe the truth is more complex than that. Maybe there are no heroes and villains. Bill’s attitude reminds me of the character of Allen in Soderberg’s Contagion, a man too caught up in his worldview to see it and too caught up in his story of victims and villains to see his own place.

Allen had a valuable role to play in exposing Dr. Cheever’s failings, leading to the scheduling of government hearings on the alleged ethical breach by a CDC leader. Nobody can deny that Allen got the truth out there. But it’s postmodernism that gives the most honor to such heroes as Allen, for its worldview of suspicion and its ethics of interrogation knows nothing better to value.

An Integral perspective values bloggers and journalists who break new investigative territory, for sure. But we also look at the context of the investigation, and whether that context is served better by non-interrogatory modalities. Instead of writing an exposé, we wonder if the situation is more skillfully handled in another way. We stand ready to expose when it’s the best thing to do, and we stand willing to give up a scoop for the benefit of a greater wholeness.

About Joe Perez

Author of books including Soulfully Gay, one of the first memoirs in the tradition of World Spirituality based on Integral principles. Director of Communications and Scholar-in-Residence at the Center for World Spirituality. Blogger since 2003. Arctophile and ailurophile. A little bit country and a little bit "part and whole."

Comments

  1. Nathan :

    I’d be interested to read Gafni’s response, but the link above isn’t working for me. Thanks!

  2. Al :

    Nice balanced post on the topic Joe . I have to agree that the facts are thin and with Marc in the respect that we have a cultural shadow around sexuality in many respects. I would like to make ISE3 but its a long haul from the other side of the world.

    Namaste
    Al

    • Exactly. I take well your point about the cultural shadow around sexuality. I know Gafni’s situation is a complex matter about which I don’t have all the facts, but it’s just hard for me to get the extreme outrage of some folks over consensual adult non-conventional sexual relationships. I realize there is debate over “consent,” but on the whole it’s impossible for me to imagine people getting so worked up if Marc’s dealings had been a perfectly legal business dealing with one of his students which he asked to keep hush-hush. Would the same people outraged over power imbalances in Marc’s sexual affairs be similarly outraged by power imbalances in business affairs?

  3. If one woman reads my posts about Marc and chooses to find a different teacher and therefore does not get involved with him, then all the dismissive “stage bias” in your post will mean nothing. As it should be.

    • Bill,

      The truly dismissive response would have been to ignore your posts, but actually I spent a good deal of time reading them and finding a stance that is simultaneously appreciative and critical. On the other hand, I see you haven’t responded to my post’s substantive points, and I don’t believe you’ve responded to Marc Gafni’s explanation of his “post-conventional” perspectives on sexuality and privacy.

      I’m happy to stay engaged in the conversation if you are. How do you respond to or refute Gafni’s extensive response? How do you respond to or disagree with my assessment of your blogging?

      Joe

      P.S.: Marc Gafni’s response to allegations against him have been online for 5 years, are up on his own website, and links about it have been all over the Internet. It’s hard for me to see how somehow some new posts are going to make a difference, if that’s what’s truly driving you.

      • First and foremost, I have NEVER claimed to be 2nd tier anything – and I have yet to meet anyone who fits the definition of 2nd tier created by Clare Graves.

        You said, “It’s hard for me to see how somehow some new posts are going to make a difference, if that’s what’s truly driving you.”

        The work around this series of posts DID make a difference. Marc is no longer affiliated with Integral Life, and after this year ISE will no longer be associated with iEvolve or CWS (which means Gafni will not be teaching there). Sounds True (and possibly Integral Life) is no longer financial sponsoring CWS. Diane Hamilton will no longer teach with him after her current obligations are complete. Finally, I suspect that Mariana will eventually leave him, but that may just be my wishful thinking.

        Marc’s defense is to blame the women for not maintaining the “post-conventional” “container” of their relationships – which is his pre-conventional manipulation and ego power-drives using the language of integral theory to justify his behaviors.

        The reality is that he lies – as he did with Tami Simon and Robb and so many others – but that he can do so with a straight face and with the absolute conviction that he is an enlightened being. With people like Sally propping him up, he may never have to face his own actions with any kind of integrity.

        The “evidence” he posted was all manufactured – I know this because I know the people involved in helping him do this in the past. The “psych evaluations” are bogus – no self-respecting psychologist would write nonsense like the stuff he posted. And the questions he passed in the “polygraph test” were constructed to allow him to pass the test and not really address the true issues of the situation.

        The fact that so many otherwise intelligent people were fooled by that stuff is simply sad.

        Unfortunately, until ALL the other women (most are unknown) feel safe in coming forward (and they don’t because posts like yours buy into Marc’s manipulations), we will never know the full extent of his exploitations. I have a lot of the information, but I cannot violate the trust of the women who have come forward to me.

        Lastly, the only heroes in this situation are the women who have broken his wall of silence and lies to tell the truth. Why would so many women over so many years all tell the same story about Marc?

        • Bill, I’m taken aback by your response here and on your blog. You ignored my request that you respond to the detailed analysis of your stance in my blog post as well as Marc Gafni’s response with its subtle arguments about post-conventional power dynamics, etc., in favor of repeating yourself, leveling new and unsupported allegations against Gafni, and accusing your critics (or at least me, I’m not sure) of “tier bigotry.” (You don’t bother to explain your vaguely-defined barbs, preferring instead to lash out as if your tantrum were self-evidently true.)

          Excuse me, how does calling me a bigot exactly help your case? Is “take your integral community and shove it” the best you can do? Or do you just regard yourself as above the norms of common civil discourse?

          I can’t help but think everything about your responses just confirms my original points about your lack of integral consciousness or disregard for any of the positive values espoused by anything vaguely integral. Calling yourself non-integral is a helpful clarification for your blog’s readers, though I regret that you continue to title your blog deceptively. Reminds me somewhat of a hypothetical blogger who titled a blog “Christian Options Cafe,” then converted to atheism but wanted to keep the name so he wouldn’t lose his readership.

          You also self-righteously posture yourself as a savior of victimized women and truth-teller maligned by mean integralists while conveniently disclaiming the observation that your blogs implicitly define you as “hero” and Marc Gafni as “villain.” Huh?

          You conveniently turn the subject away from anything germane to my question and onto Marc’s ethics. Do you not see the irony of your alleging that Marc is a plagiarist while refusing even once to respond publicly to my observations that you routinely ignore the law and Blogger’s terms of service through egregious intellectual property theft? How many innocent writers and online publishers have YOU victimized by your casual violation of their copyrights over a span of several years?

          It seems to me you’ve got some ethical issues of your own for which you’ve never been held accountable, yet you persist in throwing stones. I guess your saying “I am not integral” and “Leave me alone, you mean Joe Perez” is supposed to absolve you of your ethical responsibilities. I’m not sure, but I’m through with this discussion.

        • thosewhoselfdefineasyelloware always green :

          I have never met anyone who fits C. Grave’s definition of yellow, either. I have been to several I-I seminars; I’ve studied Wilber et all for two decades and I have participated in the ridiculously weak BAI.

          Get over yourself, I-I leadership, so that you can actually evolve. Only the marketers remain.

  4. John Wagnon :

    Hi Joe,

    I can appreciate your point of view here. I’m a friend of Bill’s and I support his choice to post on this topic. I don’t think the question of teacher misbehavior, alleged or otherwise, is best served by keeping discussions private and quiet. A vigorous public discussion is at least part of the right community response. I have my own thoughts on the latest developments around Gafni and will doubtless post on it sooner or later. One would think that we would have an informed community around teacher behavior, but my experience is that we really don’t. Many are ignorant of the history of allegations against Gafni and his various responses to them. This latest behavior actually represents a change from his public statements after Israel, five or so years ago. I think that journalism in the service of our integral community is important and Bill is the only person I’m aware of who is doing it. I can appreciate your criticism of Bill’s writing and approach – but I also think that beggars can’t be choosers. Our community structure is largely capitalistic and for that to work, we need to be kept informed. Bill’s journalism is a bit primitive – he’s not a trained journalist that I know of – but he worked to keep his article as fact based as he could, being clear about sources and about what he could reasonably claim to be true vs his private opinions about what he believes to be true. Maybe its not second tier journalism – but its the best (and only) journalism we seem to have right now.

    Best,

    John.

    • Hi John,

      I think I’ve already more than generously acknowledged Bill’s choice to post on the topic (just re-read my post). In my post, I also expressed support for the decisions by Tami Simon and Robb Smith to walk back their support for Marc Gafni. At the same time, I have a lingering suspicion that not all the truth has come out yet, and Marc may yet be seen in a different light when his side of the story gets told more fully. Thanks for your comment; when you write on the topic as you mentioned please let me know & I’ll check it out.

      ~ Joe

  5. Leela Middleton :

    Intellect without common sense leads to manipulation, just like second guessing your gut instinct around the charismatic can lead to falling into a power disparity situation with a teacher. This pattern has followed Gafni for decades, there is a continuous common denominator. Bill has not made Gafni a villain, his history did that over and over, even by his own admission. I have watched many in the Integral community overlook shadow in epidemic proportions over the past eight years. We all have shadow, it needs to be integrated,,,but it has to be brought into the light for any forward movement can take place. I think there has been a lot of enabling and turning a blind eye in order to reap the benefits of only the parts of community members that are high developed. This undermines the much needed message, example and brilliance this community has to offer, written off as another movement riddled with Svengali.

  6. Kabir Kadre :

    Thanks Joe,

    I’ve already read more on this “scandal” that I care to admit. :-) I appreciate your invitation to self reflect and inquire whether our public conversations invite or dismiss an integral or post-integral view.

    Nice work.

  7. Mushin :

    Joe, I’d think one of the main points of this is how “the outside”, who are to be the people to be engaged on an integral path, would look upon a happening like this (especially when it’s clear it’s the 2nd round with the same guy).
    All of us can go so very deep into the fineries of whatever tier and its ethical consequences for Gafni and the women involved… but he has been, more and more, in the last couple of years a’billboard’ for Integral (crammed down our throat in Germany, against many, many misgivings actually by the top-brass in Boulder). That means, whether we like it or not, that he is an EXAMPLE for how Integral works – to the “outside” as well as to insiders.
    I really couldn’t care less who makes love to whom, and what kind of relationships people prefer to live. But other than what so many commenters on this issue have been exhorting on (2nd tier, personal issue, judgementalism, etc.) the most important thing overlooked seems to be that the whole matter is throwing a very particular light on Integral (Boulder and non-Boulder alike).
    To make it more clear. Imagine there is a conference and a journalist from a major paper picks up on the topic. Do you think s/he’s going to NOT compare the Integral Perspective with the “reality” as presented by one of it’s main billboards?

    • I agree that the controversy over Marc Gafni is a distraction worth putting behind the integral community, though it is unfortunate that the important ethical issues raised by the episode are getting less attention than regurgitated attacks on the character of one person. Let’s move on, but come back another day to some important discussions around integral ethics.

  8. Lincoln :

    I appreciate Bill at least shining light on the fact that Integral Life was brooming Marc Gafni. I hadn’t noticed and probably wouldn’t have noticed unless someone pointed it out. Robb and the IL inner circle seemed to have made the decision that a quiet separation was better for everyone. I’m personally not so sure about that. Somebody was going to eventually ask, “Hey, where’s formerly prominently featured contributor and leader Marc Gafni?”

    Gafni was excommunicated by the Integral Vatican. Isn’t that weird? Why could the Integral community not be trusted to know about the differences between the Boulder Inner Circle and the Gafni camp? Why could we not have a say in the future relationship of IL and Gafni?

    The front page of integrallife.com describes itself as a town square. Well, there’s a lot of people in my town who I don’t agree with about everything. Some people swear by this mechanic while others do nothing but complain about him. Some people accuse the basketball coach of playing favorites, others defend him as trying to do the best for the team. I find it confusing that my small rural town can contain contradictions and disagreements better than Integral.

  9. David Zeitler :

    Thanks Joe for adding to the dialogue. In particular, I appreciate your back and forth with Bill, and I hope that you two will continue to feel the energy swell around you as you both dive deeper and deeper into the nuance of this issue.

    The thing that comes up for me is around the debate of “pre” vs. “post” in terms of conventionality. As someone who has been teaching developmental psychology for over ten years, someone who worked with Ken for many, many years building I-I, the thing that bothers me most about our community is our fetish for more complex levels of development.

    The worst way that this shows up is by equating “post-conventional” with “2nd Tier.” This is the sloppiest of fusions, and I see it all over the Integral blogosphere and it has to be corrected by all of us as a community. If we are going to be using developmental terms to make the world a better place, let us be clear. “Post-conventional” refers to moral meaning-making that corresponds to levels of development beyond those measuring in the “Amber altitude.” “2nd Tier” refers to cultural values that are expressed at levels of development measuring in and beyond the “Teal altitude.” In other words, there are no less than two altitudes (Orange and Green) where one can be “post-conventional” but not be “2nd Tier” (no matter what your definition of 2nd Tier is; and for the record, I don’t like ANY definition or use of 2nd Tier – every level transformation grants us huge new capacities that were not there before-hand).

    Furthermore, one can be at the Teal or Turquoise altitude in one’s “center of gravity” and still have fixations and repressions that express themselves given the right conditions (and even behaviorally cause us to seek out those conditions so that they can be expressed, like a parasitic organism). Like all unconscious motivations, we will ascribe some rationalization or another as to “why” we did that.

    Nowhere do our fixations and repressions show up more so than when it comes to sex. But it will also usually show up as a boundary-issue. I don’t know exactly how much of Marc’s issues with sex are issues at all, and how much is adult post-conventional expression. But there is clearly a boundary issue theme that follows him be it in Israel or the U.S.

    Instead of attempting to out-contextualize one another with regards to post-conventionality or the very problematic term “2nd Tier,” I propose that we limit that part of the discussion and focus more on the facts (as you Joe have done here; Bill apparently has some facts that he cannot bring forward without breaking trust – OK, but then do not mention that you have them).

    If we continue down this road of using developmental terms to debate or dialogue – particularly when we are clearly not good at it – then we will become a community whose debates and dialogues collapse under the weight of inertia. We will endlessly be debating who has the most nuanced context, the rightest post-conventionality.

    Thanks again Joe for presenting yet another side of the dialectic; I do not believe that you are being manipulated by anyone in presenting your own meaning-making around this issue.
    -David Z.

    • Mushin :

      Thank you for shining a light on this particular angle of the ‘issue’.

    • David,

      Thanks for your comment. I regret that the back-and-forth with Bill is unlikely to happen after he basically called me a bigot on this blog and expressed a hope that I would leave him alone on his own blog.

      You make one point that I’d like to take issue with when you write:

      Instead of attempting to out-contextualize one another with regards to post-conventionality or the very problematic term “2nd Tier,” I propose that we limit that part of the discussion and focus more on the facts (as you Joe have done here; Bill apparently has some facts that he cannot bring forward without breaking trust – OK, but then do not mention that you have them).

      I think I see where you’re coming from, though I think you give too much credence to Bill’s revulsion towards any discussion of what is or is not integral behavior. I for one have very little interest in “the facts” about Marc Gafni’s character flaws and shadows (conversations that I as an outsider know very little about and will not base my judgments merely on heresay). I have no doubt he’s not perfect and has made stupid decisions and said things that aren’t true. I support I-I and Sounds True’s decision because it seems that Marc violated his promises to them and lost their trust … but I’m not going to throw stones about his sex life with consenting adults.

      On the contrary, conversations about what is or is not “post-conventional” or “integral behavior” can be most useful at this time, since virtually nobody else that I know of is talking about the fact that a good deal of the criticism of Marc (but not all) is coming from perspectives not really from integral values. That’s my view, and I’m happy to hold it lightly and enter into conversation with others who see things differently. Not talking about this is to miss a good teaching opportunity, I think.

  10. MartyC :

    Harryman’s reply to Perez above strikes me as a ripe example of how this “debate” plays out: if one tries to ask for specific comment on specific information, what you get is a kind of screechy generalization, refusal to comment directly, allusions to supportive information which can’t be released, and dismissal based on pre-defined ideology. It’s like trying to box with jello. Sort of self-righteous, tone-deaf jello.

    Harryman, why don’t you go through Marc’s position statement and actually answer, directly, what is there, instead of giving the (to paraphrase) “Any idiot would know…” defense? If you want to fight, actually get in the ring and fight, deal with the real questions in terms of the information that is out there, not simply in terms of your own ideology, emotional bias, or pre-determined conclusions. (As I said in a comment on your blog, you were happy to publish, front page, Diane Hamilton and Robb Smith’s statements on Marc, which line up with your opinion, but would not then give equal billing, and then respond to, Marc’s position statement.)

    Then, regarding proof: instead of generalizations, why don’t you show how (for instance) the polygraph administered to Marc (see Marc’s website) was a crock? You say, “The ‘evidence’ he posted was all manufactured.” Ok, good, now actually prove it. You may be totally correct, but why should anyone take your word or conclusions without referencing the particulars, any more than people should take (as you point out) Marc’s word or conclusions as a given. Publish statements from the women involved, instead of convenient allusions (I do understand confidentiality, but to paraphrase Zeitler, if you can’t show the information, shut up. Why do you think anyone should trust you just because you say so, either to actually have any information, or to not have distorted or miscontextualized it?).

    Another chicken shit argument that you give is that the critics of your position are responsible for the silence of the “nameless women” (you write: “Unfortunately, until ALL the other women (most are unknown) feel safe in coming forward (and they don’t because posts like yours buy into Marc’s manipulations, we will never know the full extent of his exploitations), we will never know…”) Talk with your “sources” and get them to put their statements out there, as Marcy, my wife, and even for the prosecution, Marc’s 3rd wife, have done. This “I know but can’t tell” is just bullshit.

    It’s hard to be nice in all this—and I’m glad my wife, a personal student of Marc’s, is being so un-nice—when there’s no real interest in, or perhaps capability of having, a real dialogue. So: Harryman, your sniffy, sniveling, self-righteous, “I’m so offended I’m going to take my toys and go help the good and suffering, unlike you nasties!” (see: http://integral-options.blogspot.com/2011/09/i-am-not-2nd-tier-nor-am-i-integral.html)–Christ, man, did your feelings get hurt by that horrible bully, Perez, when he threw sand in your face (i.e., asked you to back up your claims with direct comment and response)? Should Integral come crawling, begging you to come back? Do you need some balm for the terrible drubbing you’ve taken at the hands of all the meanies? (By the way, I work as a psychotherapist, and have a decade working with the psychiatric downtrodden, so that dichotomy you pose between Integral and social care is crap and self-serving.)

    Here’s the Red level reply: Sack up and strap a pair on. You get in there and start throwing your punches, your bullshit sucker punches, your “its confidential!” rabbit punches, and then when a few get thrown back (here, Perez’s extremely polite and measured critque), you’re running off to hide in your blog, in your self-righteousness, with your “attaboy!” team. If you want to mix it up, have the fucking dignity to take your licks and not jump out of the ring, crying like a bitch (i.e., dark victim feminine), when you get some blows in return.

    All right. I don’t, of course, expect this to be a constructive reply in the ongoing “dialogue,” nor do I mean it to reply to Marc’s particular issues at all, but rather to backlight the fraudulent nature of this “discourse.” Muckraking is muckraking; polemics are polemics. That’s fine. Just have the honesty to label what you’re doing properly, and don’t hide out in your very ugly self-righteousness.

    MartyC

    • Hi MartyC.

      You wrote:

      if one tries to ask for specific comment on specific information, what you get is a kind of screechy generalization, refusal to comment directly, allusions to supportive information which can’t be released, and dismissal based on pre-defined ideology. It’s like trying to box with jello. Sort of self-righteous, tone-deaf jello.

      Nail. On. The. Head.

      Wish I had time to reply to all the commenters on this thread. Thanks for your replies. Much appreciated.

  11. HeatherUK :

    I, too, wish to see a point by point response by WH and others to Marc’s point by point response, found here which I recommend everyone go and actually read through it:

    http://www.marcgafni.com/?p=3002

    If there’s proof to be had against, facts and the like, I’d really like to see it.

    Thanks, Heather

  12. Zakariyya :

    This unfortunate dispute, in the context of the events and feelings, is the classic case of the moralist versus the idealist. Of course the moralist is also an idealist but his ideals have merged with real time events that precipitate his morality surfacing and emoting externally its passionate flame of offense. While the idealist sits on the throne of objectivity basking in the light of detachment.

    I have sympathy for the moralist here in that often I wage disputes with libertarian politicos who are detached from the real-time suffering of the masses, as they take umbrage in their ideas of freedom as humans starve.

    I also have partiality to the idealists here, Joe Perez, because his ideals merge with the higher striving for the cause without marginalizing the offended—a true Integral outlook.

    There may be no immediate solution to this separation until the moralist’s flames of offense die down, and the heat in which he has inflicted on the Idealist turns back into light.

    Zak

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